The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #209 - Mike Sarraille

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation that I am about to have. You know, I'm excited when I record a little bit of video because [chuckles] it's a rarity for me. But I just simply had to meet today's guest on video because I feel like I already know him. He is a great friend, colleague, fellow SEAL with somebody that my audience is probably familiar with, which is Dr. Kirk Parsley. I've had him on the show I think like four times now. So, I'll put links to that in the show, notes that's a lot of good stuff on sleep is usually the topic [chuckles] for those shows. But I am here today with his dear friend Mike Sarraille, who is-- just get prepared for epic motivation of all motivations. He does so many things. So, like I mentioned, he is a Navy SEAL. He also is the host of the Men's Journal Everyday Warrior series. It's a podcast series. The Everyday Warrior is his thing, which, speaking of, he has a new book out called The Everyday Warrior: A No-Hack, Practical Approach to Life. 

Friends, I read this book and I said the word inspiring already. It is very inspiring. We're going to dive deep into it, but it just really goes into all the things that a person can do in life to be a warrior. And by warrior, I don't necessarily mean Navy SEAL level, but just a warrior in your own everyday life taking agency, I'm excited to talk about that agency for your actions, the characteristics, perseverance and achieving goals, and finding your tribe and just so many things we can talk about. It doesn't even end there. Mike also has a documentary he's involved with coming out soon. It is about the Triple 7 Expedition, so I'm sure we will talk about that. He's also involved in, I mean, a lot of other stuff like philanthropic work. What am I leaving out? There're [laughs] so many things. What's your main thing? 

Mike Sarraille: People ask me what I do for a living. I look at my wife, Jordan, and she's like, "Just do your best." I say, "I'm entrepreneurial," because I've got a very professional consulting firm on leadership development and executive search, placing high performing individuals into C-suite or general management positions. And then you've got this side where we go and jump out of airplanes into Mount Everest with all my buddies. I don't want to put a title on it because it's funny. A buddy and I just wrote an article for Fox News which we had a title called A Return to American Exceptionalism, a Call to do Hard Things and they changed the title and say, Two ex-Navy SEALs Know How to Fix America. And we're like, "Well, first off, we don't know how to fix America." We're just saying this. But SEAL becomes the first tagline when you're introduced and I just don't need taglines anymore. Hopefully people are like, "He was just a fun guy to hang around and was always experimenting with new things." 

Melanie Avalon: I love that so much. I've struggled with that as well. Like the one title to encompass you and it's funny. Like entrepreneur is a nice title. It does encompass a lot of things, but I never felt like an entrepreneur. I got an article in Entrepreneur and then I was like, "Well, I guess I have to embrace that title now." We were just talking offline before this about how in today's world you can do so many things that you couldn't necessarily do before with the Internet and social media. Oh, we can talk about social media because you talk about that in your book, building a platform. And I'm just grateful that we can actually reach so many people now through methods like podcasting, like we're doing right now. Okay, I have so many questions for you. I'm going to turn my video off [laughs] for listeners because they know I think better when I can't see myself. But I'm glad we got to capture this beautiful image and your amazing background. 

Okay, well, to start things off, I'm sure you get this question a lot about your personal story, which you do talk about in your book. But what did lead you to what you're doing today? I'm also super curious. It's funny, I know Kirk so well and we've talked for hours and hours and hours, but we never really talked about his SEAL experience to any great extent. I'm just so curious what that experience is like. I mean, because when people think, if your SEAL, I think they think like Greek God, legend, mythology, like stuff that's not even possible for the, "normal human being." So, what is that? 

Mike Sarraille: Well. First you know Kirk? Kirk, we've had this conversation. He always underplays, undercuts himself. He's like, "Hey, I was a SEAL, but not that type of SEAL I didn't see combat." It was simply timing. He came in, I think, in the late 80s, even though he looks like he's in his 40s, handsome devil. He just was in during the 90s when they weren't at war. But he tells stories, and I just laugh my ass off. It was a different generation of SEALs. They had some fun, but for him to go on and become a doctor and then return and be really the West Coast doctor to the SEAL teams and take care of all those guys coming back from combat, he did a lot more than I did. We are definitely not Greek gods. We're humans. People often make or their perceptions are shaped about the SEALs or the military, especially if they didn't serve by Hollywood. 

I mean, as a young 14, 15,16-year-old watching those movies, that's what I thought the military was like, is what I saw in the movies. And there are no Rambos. You put any one person on the ground by themselves in Iraq or Afghanistan or any other war, and they've got no support. The support of a tribe behind them, they're only going to last so long. So, for me, Melanie, I always like to say, "It drives everyone crazy." Always the bridesmaid, never the bride. I was never the fastest, the strongest, fastest swimmer, best shot, best skydiver. But, man, I was part of a team that no matter what you tasked us with, we're going to find a way to achieve mission success. We didn't always get it right, but we usually got it done. And so, I really liked the tribal aspect of the military, whether it was the SEALs. And I actually started out in Marine Recon. I was a Scout Sniper. I love those guys. You just put good people that all believe in a purpose and they know their why and they all are growth minded, which is to say a warrior mindset, it's amazing what you can do. And so, I'm thankful for the brothers and the sisters that I served alongside and everything that they taught me has shaped and mentored me into the man I am today.

There's still a lot of work to do, a lot. You talk to my wife; she would go on for days about all the things I need to fix and she's not wrong. But, yeah, if they want to know something, I'll say this. We felt that sense of tribe that 99.9% of people never feel and, well, "Hey, my family is that way. We're really tight." Yeah, I get it. It's family. You don't have a choice, but you have a choice about who you surround yourself with and what communities you're a part of and the bonds, the homecoming, the belonging, the emotional intimacy and vulnerability amongst a group of men and women in combat is like no other experience out there. And I haven't experienced it in any close form in the private sector. But that's also why we stood up Legacy Expeditions to almost get the band back together and go do hard things. 

Melanie Avalon: In your book, you're talking about how really anybody can be a warrior and you talk about the difference between a warrior versus necessarily a, "war fighter." I'm curious with your experience with the SEALs, out of everybody who starts the program and then becomes a SEAL, do you know that percent? 

Mike Sarraille: Yes. So, I've seen a variety of figures, but it's roughly between 75% to 90% attrition rate, depending on circumstances. Roughly, each class has about 250 young men who are all amazing individuals and they usually graduate anywhere from 25 to I think one class started with 250 and they graduated 8. So, you bring up an interesting point. You have my gratitude to anyone who makes it through SEAL training. They've gone through something very difficult. They've shown something that you have to show in order to get into that community, resilience, team ability, the no-quit attitude, the warrior mindset. But as you mentioned, in my opinion, and I'm not saying I was a warrior, I strived to be. Not everyone was a warrior within the SEAL teams. Some of them were great war fighters, but some of them did lack character and people want to paint, "Oh my God, that guy served six years in the SEALs." And then, "Hey, this guy served 20 years in the SEALs." There's a difference, performance is not standard across the board. You have some SEALs who quite frankly, are just not very good at their job, and then you have SEALs that are just awe inspiring, and they're the top percentage of SEALs.

I mean, Heraclitus, who's a pre-Ionian philosopher, and I wrote about it in the book, and this is a guy we're talking generations ago in history, said on the battlefield there're 100 warriors. Ten don't deserve to be there, 80 are basically targets and then nine, God bless those nine for they make the battle, but one, one brings us home. So, he just basically said that, "10% of the hundred men are true warriors." And what I've seen is that percentage is pretty accurate. I mean, you look at power's law, which basically says in layman terms, "An overwhelming majority of your outcomes are driven by a very small percentage of your workforce." 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay, so this is my question. [chuckles] So like are people born is that 10% and then that ultimate 1% that brings you home? Is that something we're born with? And if so, could anybody become that percent or not I mean? 

Mike Sarraille: So, the nature versus nurture argument. I tend to put a percentage on it, like 90% nurture, 10% nature. Yes, are we born with certain physiological characteristics that have been passed down within our DNA? Absolutely, somebody's going to be 6'4". They put on muscle easier than other people they metabolize fat. Yes, that exists, but that only takes you to a certain point. And the interesting thing I did enjoy about the basic reconnaissance course, which is where guys go to draft for Marine Recon in SEAL training is that the most physically fit guy who everyone thinks is going to make it, all of a sudden, rings out, drops on request two weeks into a 6-month to 12-month program and then all of a sudden the guy and this happened to me. I wrote about it in my book, The Talent War. 

There was this little Korean kid, first generation American, and I'm coming from the Marine Recon community, there's no way I'm quitting buds because I'm representing the Marine Corps, even though now I'm technically dressed in a Navy uniform. And a great Marine officer told me he's like, "Mike, don't quit or you'll embarrass the Marine Corps." And I appreciate the fact that he said that to me. He was the only one that would candidly say that. And so, I looked at this little Korean kid and I'm like, "Yeah, he was sort of passive." I'm like, "Yeah, the kid's not going to make it." Well, at the end of Hell Week. We started with 250, and I think we graduated like 25 from Hell Week. And there's that little Korean kid. I couldn't be more wrong. As life went on, we ended up at the same SEAL team where I watched him earn a Silver Star, then went back to the Battle of Sadr City with him, where I watch him earn a Bronze Star for valor. And then he went on to-- the Navy, sent him back to school, where he got a 3.98 in mathematics and then went to Harvard Medical School. And then after a few years of being a Navy doctor, decided to apply for NASA, which I think is 18,000 applicants, and they select 12. He was one of them. 

And now, Navy SEALs, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Harvard educated doctor, NASA astronaut actually just completed his Navy aviation wing, so now he's a pilot. He had been through a lot of life struggles. In fact, we didn't know this, but on the Jocko Podcast, he told a story that he had never told us when we served with him. The fact that when he had a highly abusive, alcoholic father and one night in his senior year of school, he decided to stand up to his dad, told him to get out of the house while his dad went into an attic when the police came, Johnny realized that the attic door was ajar and said, "Hey, I think my dad's still in the house." There was a shootout. His dad was armed. Unfortunately, his dad was killed in the exchange and he held that probably guilt, still does for life. So that nurture part what we've seen is people that continually go through hardship and find a way this resilience to persevere and to learn from it and grow, go on to do great things. So yes, anyone can become a warrior in terms of mindset, it is all about having the courage to get out there and fail and redefining failure. 

Failure is not an indictment of your character. In order to achieve success or excellence, if you want to say it, plan on failing a lot. And that hurts not because of internal strife, but usually our fear of external. If you fail and the people in the cheap seats that will never risk anything, make comments and call you stupid and laugh at you. And once you can overcome that and start to smile when you fail, have appreciation for it, learn from it, and then get back on the saddle, as we say, and continue striving forward, you become a warrior. So, you can take small steps by putting yourself in what some people call deliberate hardship or deliberate discomfort. In the military, we said, "Get comfortable with being uncomfortable." 

It meant that in order to learn and grow, you've got to do hard things, which is to say, "Push yourself outside of your mental and physical comfort zones." And the more you do that, let's say you fear getting up in front of a crowd and speaking. Well, practice in the mirror. Next, go ask your family to sit down in the living room and give a speech. And then get out in a community and speak to five people and then 10 people and just continually build. We don't want you to take this just drastic leap of the deep end or into the deep end. No, dip a toe in the water, see what you learn, dip two toes and just continue to iterate until you build those scars and you no longer fear those things. And then move on to something that makes you uncomfortable. 

Melanie Avalon: One of my favorite takeaways or pieces of advice that you had in the book about failure was sitting back and viewing the objective practical implications of something that you perceive as failure. In other words, what actually happened? Did you actually lose money? Did you actually damage anything? Because I think we tend to catastrophize, we see something as a failure, and then it becomes this whole narrative in our head of this epic fail, when really, if you view it objectively, what actually happened. And I think that-- I hadn't really thought about that before, but I think that's a really nice approach. 

Mike Sarraille: This thing between both ears is the most beautiful thing in the world, and it's what leads to your mindset. It also can be your biggest liability. You just said it, you catastrophize something that really isn't a big deal. And so, celebrate your victories and then move on. Dwell or reflect on your failures and then quickly move on. Some things you may dwell on a little more like if you ruined a relationship during a business setting, I get it. But if you can take the time to rest, reflect, and then step back into the arena, you're going to do great things. Of course, there're things that need to be done, like kindness, respect, and empathy and all the things that you do that you're not ruining relationships. You're not being, for lack of a better words, an asshole. But if you're doing things with good intent and just continually evolving, then you're going to lead a purpose driven life.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I have a question about that because I'm really all about things you just mentioned kindness, empathy. Do you think sometimes-- [laughs] Talking objectively though, sometimes do people who are Machiavellian win?

Mike Sarraille: Oh, yeah, they do. They do and I know that can be frustrating for people that didn't take their approach, took the right approach, and things didn't work out. I hate to say it, there're SEALs out there that have built these massive images who, quite frankly, weren't good SEALs and not team players. And for a lot of it-- internally within our community, guys are like, "Screw them." I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, congratulate them on their success." They've done something right. Maybe they're not kind to people. Just you know what? They're a grown individual, a grown adult. There's nothing you can do about it move on with your life. This is like comparison is the thief of joy and karma will come back. Karma always comes back. Just stop comparing yourself to other people. Even if they're ruining relationships, but they're still meeting with success. Things have a way of that pot percolating over, and so they will have their moment of reckoning. But that's not for you. You're not the arbiter of that situation or that individual. So really focus on what you can control and what you can affect and try to dismiss what you can't, because, again, you're going to cause yourself a lot of depression, anxiety, and just total disarray of mental health. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And that taps into a larger theme of the book and a personal passion of mine. I was talking about this as well before the recording, which is just the role of agency control in your own life, not playing into the victimhood epidemic that we have today. What are your thoughts on all of that? Everybody's a victim, everybody's offended. What are your thoughts? 

Mike Sarraille: So [chuckles] when I wrote the book, Fox News got a hold of it. They had me come on. But what do they want to focus on? Victimhood, there is and I think victimhood is the biggest epidemic we have right now. And there's some very bad narratives out there. I can assure you. You don't have less because somebody else has more. And to actually believe that, to buy into the victimhood mentality, which is attractive, which means you can just play the victim card, and you have to put no effort in and nothing is your fault. The end is dangerous. And you, as you just said it, to play into that victimhood, you deny your agency control over your life. You are in control of the majority of outcomes in your life. Now, when you have and I call the victimhood is really a fixed mindset. This growth mindset, this warrior mindset, even though you have it, it's not going to insulate you from hardship, but it prepares you to react or respond in a positive way. 

Something bad happens, like COVID victims are like, "Hey, it's not my fault. There's nothing I can do." Yeah, okay. You've just discounted your agency. Growth minded people say, "Hey, okay, hey, this is a horrible situation. How am I going to make the best of it? How can I move forward? How can I thrive through adversity?" Nobody could have planned on COVID. We're not putting, placing blame on anyone. But you saw the difference between the two mindsets and victimhood. Victims love-- misery loves company, that's what it is. And you see people victims attract other victims, saying, "Hey, it's okay, it's not your fault, it's their fault. Come hang out over here" and you create this little toxic well where you collect everyone who wants to put zero effort in and just commensurate in their misery. And it's a horrible group to be around and I got a lot of negative comments on the book, and I wasn't trying to offend anyone. And then some people reached out, "Well, hey, you don't know what it's like to be a certain race in America." And I'm like, "You know what? I don't and I'm not saying that." And not everyone starts out at an equal starting block. And at no point did I try to ever say that I understand what it's like to be a black woman in America. I'm not saying that. But you do have control over your responses and your reactions and no one is in control of your life but you. 

Melanie Avalon: Can we ever blame anybody else for our problems or for anything? Is there an exception?

Mike Sarraille: You know, there probably is. Now, victims of crimes yeah, I get it. But what I'm saying is look at the scenario of, "Hey, this person assaulted me, and it's weighing me down." You have a decision. Let them control your life through that attack, that assault. Or say, this was a horrible incident. This person took advantage of me. They caused damage mentally, physically, but they are not in control of my life. The decision I make next is going to show them that they did not win. I won by learning, growing, and becoming a better human being. And quite frankly, if you look at all those scenarios, you see the difference between the two.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting. I had a sexual assault experience with a massage therapist, and I'm actually really, really grateful that that happened because I got to turn it into-- now, I run PSAs on this show about it to raise awareness and encourage people to speak out. And when it happened, I was on the fence about going to the police or not, and I did, and I'm so glad I did. And they took him to jail. This was year ago, but I actually just got an update about that case. But I think that's a good example of something that was done wrong. But you have the decision after that how you handle it and how it affects your life and how it affects other people's lives. I mean, I really think everything you can turn around to your benefit in some way. I mean, maybe that's a pipe dream. I don't know. [laughs] It's just my perspective. 

Mike Sarraille: Melanie, let me say this. First off, that kills me that happened to you. I wish that never happened. Predators-- I've got a very different approach to taking care of people that commit certain crimes, get a very different viewpoint on how to fix that problem in America. But that's predatory and it's disgusting. And I'm glad you have found growth through it that you won moral courage to go to law enforcement and do the right thing. And I'm sure there's a lot of women that have done that right thing, and it still didn't work out in their favor. And the systematic problems that we have there but when I hear those stories perpetrated by men, they aren't men, they're predators, and predators have no place on this earth in my opinion. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, thank you for [laughs] making me cheer up. Thank you so much. Actually, I can say that I'm grateful it happened because I think I've had so many people reach out to me through the show saying that something had happened to them and that they never felt the courage until they heard me talk about it to actually even way later go back and report it or at least make a report. So, it's been actually a good thing in my life. I'm grateful for it. Well, speaking of today's culture well, actually, one more question about the victimhood. Why do you think we have this epidemic? 

Mike Sarraille: I do believe we're just on a podcast with a world class climber. He just summited Everest for the 6th time. I think it was his 20th trip to Nepal. But we talked about walking from Lukla, which is known as the most dangerous airport in the world to Namchi, which is the highest city in the world, which is a beautiful route. And how you watch these Nepalese people and some of them are the Sherpa sect. And you've got young children bathing in like 40-degree water, and they're looking at you smiling where I would be crying, sitting in that water. Or they're walking 10 miles down these just the incline of these trails and the elevation gain and drop. They're hard people. We have become so with the advent of the industrial age and technology, we've become so comfortable and we've become entitled. Americans believe I am entitled to this. I'm entitled to a free paycheck. But this is all, one, because we've become very comfortable. And when you become very comfortable, you become entitled and stagnant. And there's some dangerous narratives out there, and I think it starts with education of our youth. 

Our youth is always the solution to our biggest problems and always just investing in the next generation to become better than us, that's the whole point. That's a term I call the legacy of leadership and we're not instilling the right values in our children. Where these things come, we're like, everyone gets a trophy. No, not everyone gets a trophy. And again, that's not an indictment of your character. If you don't get a trophy, it's not saying that you're not good enough. It's saying that, "Hey, you didn't achieve success on this. Go around try again." I was never the guy who, like I said, was good at anything where some people, they're successful almost every time. I'm the guy that has to do it 20 times to become successful. But we've got dangerous narratives out there, especially perpetrated by the media that are just, again, pulling people into this victimhood category and creating just angry people who just will not get up out of their seats and take the right path, the hard path in betterment for their lives.

Melanie Avalon: Do you think it's a wave are we going to oscillate back to something different? Or do you think it's a downward spiral? 

Mike Sarraille: So, if you went back to like the 60s, 70s and probably talked to the World War II vets that were watching the Vietnam generation and the hippie movement, they probably thought the country was going to hell. I think every generation goes through that. We fortunately forget the history or our past very quickly everything goes through an ebb and flow. And I think right now we're in an ebb. And when something unfortunately, you've got to have some catastrophic events for people to wake up and say, "Okay, hey, we're on the wrong path. We need to start heading in this direction." So, I believe it'll course correct. I've got to have hope. And there're some things about this younger generation I really do like they're seeing us bicker amongst ourselves, which we're not setting a good example. They're more financially sound. They're not living their lives in debt like the baby boomers Generation X did, which I'm Generation X.

There's always hope in our youth, but we also have to set the example. We have to show them what it means to be a professional, to be kind, empathetic and respectful, to have a civil conversation. So no, I think we will course correct. And I understand why some people believe, again, the country is going to hell. Do the right thing. Try to set the example for those around you. And you'd be surprised if in hardship, people see you smiling, they're like, "You know what? I'm going to start following that individual over there because they have this growth positive mindset that despite everything going wrong, they're not complaining, they're just moving forward." 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I love that. And speaking of the different generations and what we see in social media, so I love in the book you talk about the role of social media and you talk about, oh, I wanted to share it. Okay, have you been receiving-- could you talk about people sharing their failures and tagging you or DMing you. Have people done that? 

Mike Sarraille: Yeah, they have. And of course, I would never share it. Talk about warming my heart. I'm humbled that you would share that. And we share some messages and just giving them some support like, "Hey, listen, just keep moving forward. Bad times cometh, bad times goeth." And then when you're successful, just remember "Good times cometh and good times goeth." So don't lose faith. And in the fact that people reach out and we form that community, I love that aspect of what we're doing. 

Melanie Avalon: And what do you encourage people to share exactly and tag?

Mike Sarraille: Just failures. If things are awry in your life and if I can provide just one little nugget of wisdom or a message of support, sometimes that really helps for certain people. I got a note from an individual in jail and I'm going to respond to him. So, his parents reached out, his girlfriend reached out, he sent a letter to my house, and he read The Everyday Warrior. I'm humbled that somebody who fell on hardship partly self-inflicted in prison can read the book and say, "Hey, man, I want to be better, I want to be different. When I leave here I want to be on a path to recover my life." And so, I owe that individual a lot of gratitude for, one, picking up my book, reading it, and then having the courage to send a letter and have his family reach out.

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. I love that. Well, we'll put a link in the show notes to your Instagram and all of that, so people can do that if they like. How do you engage with social media? Because you talk in the book about the role of disconnecting and how we're oversaturated in the digital world today. What about people like you and I where we kind of have to do it for our jobs? You literally say in the book, you say, like, "Unless you're an influencer..." I'm like, well.

Mike Sarraille: Yeah. I've been called an influencer and I've also been called a motivational speaker and I'm like, "I'm neither." I'm a leadership development professional. God, if I end up being known as an influencer, my old man's going to get upset. So, I've got two buckets, work and my personal life, and I'm not all that active if you go and look at my Instagram about my personal life, some things are private. I would always caution people to keep things as private as possible. But if you do share a failure and I've seen that and it's done in a professional tactful way and you're conveying a lesson learned or, "Hey, do you guys have any advice how to turn this around?" I encourage that without being-- there's a difference between being vulnerable and being a victim. It's a dichotomy, and you want to make sure that you're more towards the vulnerable part, less away from the victim part. But it is a form of communication. But come Friday, I try to shut that thing down and at least focus on my wife and my family.

Yeah, we make video something that'll post on Monday, but you saw the stats in there about this younger generation, and by the time they're like 75, given the average amount of time spent on social media, it's like five years of their entire life they've been scrolling on what a buddy calls the anxiety box. But I would say this, "With media, if it bleeds, it leads." And we may be standing up a show called the Everyday Warrior TV series where I've got a couple of hosts alongside me, where we want to go tell the stories of lesser known, amazing human beings that are doing impactful work in their communities. Those are the stories that need to be told. Not the doom and gloom. So, if there's somebody you follow that just aggravates you and makes you upset, again you have agency over your decisions. Say unfollow and follow positive content. I'm not saying don't keep up with current affairs. Some jobs require both internationally and national current affairs. Yeah, absolutely. But remember, if you go back to the days of Athens, I'm sure it was the same thing doom and gloom, the end of the world's coming. And guess what? Generation after generation, we've persevered and we're still here. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I'm so glad you said that because I feel so strongly about this. I mean, I do agree that social media is having a negative effect on a lot of people. And there was that documentary, The Social Dilemma, but there's this whole messaging that the algorithm is out to get us and social media is just wrecking us. And I'm like, "Well, you choose what you're feeding into that algorithm." So, I mean, if my home feed is mostly just like Taylor Swift videos and it's really happy so--

Mike Sarraille: Taylor Swift kicks ass, of course.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Yes, so I think even there, it's like this subtle nuance where people are not taking agency again for their own life. Like, you can choose how you engage with social media, and you can choose what you're feeding into the algorithm and what it feeds back. And like you said, "Who you follow and don't follow."

Mike Sarraille: On the topic of Taylor Swift, Kelly Clarkson was going to have me on post Triple 7, and they canceled last minute, and I was all excited. I'm like, "Kelly Clarkson? Oh, yeah, we're going to have fun with this." It's like every SEALs dream. I'm joking. Now, it can't consume your life. My wife and I have committed to walking 30 minutes in the morning with our dogs and 30 minutes in the evening with our dogs. No social media, just breathing, just sort of breaking away from all the noise. And it's amazing how just one simple little tactic can just relieve some of the anxiety. And I get depression, I get anxiety as well, every human being. You know the book is not some prescriptive methods that should make your life so great. You're going to suffer hardship. 

That's just life. But these small little and I love it like almost cognitive behavioral therapies, which we should be teaching our kids now in grammar school, given the mental health rates, is we should be teaching our kids cognitive behavioral therapy techniques to minimize depression, anxiety, and prepare them for the hardships of life. And we're not doing that. Dr. Luana Marques just wrote a book called Bold Move. Rather than issuing antidepressants, which there's a time and place for that, let's teach them techniques that when you suffer hardship let's work through breathing techniques. I mean, it's the same thing when I was sitting on a MH-47 with all 40, well 20 guys. And then there's another MH-47, lights are off. We're on our nods. We're going into a combat mission. I would sit there and visualize every stage of the mission, and I'd walk through contingencies, but I'm breathing. I'm visualizing, I'm walking through the performance of the entire thing and how that was so cathartic for me and got my mindset right. And people just don't have the discipline to step away from all the noise. You have to actually have the discipline to say, "No. I'm going to go walk around every five minutes at the top of the hour to make sure I'm getting my 10,000 steps in which is important." Best way to maintain a positive weight is always get your 10,000 plus steps in a day. Kirk and I have talked about this. You look at society a generation ago where they had to walk everywhere. Obesity levels were much lower, or, "Hey, at the top of the hour, I'm going to take five minutes to do some mindfulness techniques. I'm going to breathe. I'm going to visualize." Those small things, you start to see a compounding effect from them that make you just feel so much better. 

Melanie Avalon: I cannot agree more. One of my favorite things in life is the concept of boundaries and self-care. And what do you say to people who believe that self-care is selfish? 

Mike Sarraille: There was a phrase, I took everything as gospel, as scripture when I joined the Marine Corps because I was in such awe of the men and the women that were in charge of me. There's a phrase called "Leaders eat last." And so, I took that as gospel and always made sure that my guys ate before me, or if I was a Corporal, the Lance Corporals ate before me. And it was in the SEALs that had a really great master chief, a mentor, what we call Senior Enlisted Advisor. And he actually, he sort of yelled at me. He's like, "That's driving me crazy." He's like, "Stop." Some expletives, "Stop doing that." He's like, "You need to go get to the computer and start your post-op, so go get your food before us. We know you got to get to the office." And I'd be exhausted and he would see it, and I'm like, "I finally understood." He said, "Sometimes in order to take care of people and to be a better leader, you have to take care of yourself." I'm not saying, "Oh, God, I'm such a good human being because I was so selfless."

I wanted my guys to see through my actions that I was always putting them before me. And sometimes it ran me into the ground to the point where guys had to tap me out. I had some things going on in my life. It was affecting my performance. I was going through a divorce. I didn't want to admit that to my guys. And finally, they said, "Hey, what's going on?" Stop lying to us. "Hey, I'm going through a divorce." And they said, "Okay, we're going to take things off your plate for the next month or two because we're deploying in four months and we need you at the top of your game." That was very late in my career, actually, my second to last deployment. And you would think now all this wisdom that I would know that I need to break away and admit that I need help, and I still couldn't do it at that time. So, departing from the military and going through a downward spiral of losing my tribe, my identity, my mission, and also survivors' guilt. There's been a lot of reflection with the help of a mental health specialist, a clinical psychologist in helping me work through what's important, finding my mission again, my purpose of who am I? Which is a question we all struggle with. So, I'm grateful for the people in my life that have taught me sometimes you need to take better care of yourself in order to take better care of your kids or anyone else. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's a big paradigm shift. But I just think it's so important because really, I think the only way you can best show up to everybody else in the world and bring the best of the world is if you take care of yourself first. [laughs] 

Mike Sarraille: Now, there's a point. Now if you take it to the extreme, people are going to notice that and they're going to put a label on you, selfish. 

Melanie Avalon: So just finding that balance. Speaking of the tribes, how can people find their tribe? Yeah, how can they know if they're in the right tribe? You talk in your book about good versus bad tribes, what even is a tribe?

Mike Sarraille: So, your tribe and sometimes people belong to multiple tribes. That's okay too. I'm not advocating against that, that's okay. Sometimes you have a professional tribe. You have a sort of casual, friendly tribe. Ultimately ask your question, are these people making me a better person? Are they pushing me outside my comfort zones in a positive, healthy way? It goes back to that proverb "iron sharpens iron." So, is one person sharpens another? That's what I've always sought to surround myself with Kirk Parsley, with John Welbourn, with guys like Nick Kush, Andy Stumpf who always say, "Hey, no, you can do better at that manner." "Hey, you didn't do that well," who'd be very candid or who always propose let's do some hard things. And that keeps me off balance. It keeps me uncomfortable, which hopefully keeps me growing. But if you're part of a tribe that wants to go to the bars every Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, while they may be fun to hang around, ask yourself, is this instilling positive foundational habits for me to be successful for the rest of my life? 

Because at 35, if you're unmarried, yeah, that may be fun, but is that going to be relevant or healthy when you're married with a wife and kids, no. So, you've got to ask yourself, do these people stand for something good? Are they trying to become better human beings? And when I said good or bad cultures, there are no good or bad cultures, they are just culture. But ultimately, you know, what do you stand for? Because the Taliban is a culture, and they're a highly effective culture, whether you want to agree or not. ISIS is a culture. They were highly effective. Yes, they stood for bad and I don't agree with what-- the Hell's Angels are a culture. But then you have other cultures know the Red Cross or religious groups. If you're part of a terrorist organization praying on the weak, I would say you're not in an ethically good culture, and you might want to reassess your priorities. 

Melanie Avalon: That makes sense. I love when I read a book and I learn about a concept that I've never been exposed to before. It's very exciting. [laughs] So I had never heard of a VUCA environment. I was wondering if you could tell listeners a little bit about that concept. 

Mike Sarraille: Yeah. It's a military term volatility, uncertainty, chaotic, and ambiguity. So, volatility, uncertainty, chaotic, and ambiguity. And it's basically a Combat Zone, but it's also life. They're the same thing, especially at the speed at which people do business now. So, we train and educate people to thrive in that volatile, uncertain, chaotic, ambiguous environment, they call a Combat Zone. And to be able to block out the noise, to be able to prioritize with limited information, to be able to act and respond. That's ultimately what we train people to do within the military and special operations. Well, again, you look at COVID. COVID was a VUCA environment. Nobody saw that coming. It was volatile. There was total uncertainty. Things were chaotic and there was total ambiguity because we're getting information from both sides. This is accurate. This is inaccurate. No, that's inaccurate. That was a VUCA environment. And you saw people who had been mentored, coached, forged to thrive in those environments, and you saw the majority of people that weren't. So, if you have children, the time to expose them to adversity and to prepare them for life is almost immediately.

Melanie Avalon: I was waiting. I was like, when are you going to say, [laughs] okay.

Mike Sarraille: So, putting your children in situations where they're going to have social conflict with other kids and not immediately stepping in and letting them develop their critical thinking and work through the problem is actually healthy. I talk predominantly with companies. I ended up on the top 30 Gurus Global Leadership speakers, which I have no clue. Maybe they just had a poor candidate pool in 2023. People ask how we led in the military, and for me it's simple, we led through love. The highest form of compassion is accountability. You see your child do something wrong, hopefully in a professional tactful way, you pull them aside, ask them why they did that, reinforce why it wasn't the correct action to take, the impacts it has on other people and help them through the Socratic method, develop critical thinking. Because at end of the day and that's no different than leading your men or women in the military or in the business world is you want to make your people, your younger leaders better than you are. 

And so, at the end of the day, if you want to look at it from a parent perspective, I want to raise kids that are competent, good human beings that contribute to society, but more importantly, are able to stand on their own 2 feet not to insulate them from failure, but to teach them that when failure happens. They have the critical thinking to reflect, learn, grow, and then continue moving forward. That's the whole point. So, exposing-- again getting comfortable with being uncomfortable, exposing your kids to uncomfortable situations in a very smart approach and ramping that up slowly followed by periods of reflection, you'll forge amazing human beings that are capable of more than you would ever imagine. 

Melanie Avalon: I love that. And two thoughts there evolutionarily, I've read that even play like kids playing, the purpose of that is for them to experience mock versions of scenarios [laughs] that could happen. So, it's like kids are naturally like they want to be, I think, experiencing this ambiguity and this complexity and everything. 

Mike Sarraille: Yeah. I mean, you take kids on the playground and then put that next to a video of our national government, like Congress. Yeah, you're absolutely right. They're acting both the same way, like children. So yeah, sometimes us adults don't evolve from how we act on the playground, but we put a professional title on it. It's actually quite sad. 

Melanie Avalon: Talking about the role of love, I've also heard they'll say that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy. And the interesting thing about that is apathy would be, in my opinion, sort of the opposite of action. So that kind of brings everything all together and that love and action are sort of connected. I was just thinking about that connection there. 

Mike Sarraille: So, one of the things I say when I say we led through love in the military and it took me a long time to realize this, I didn't care about the enemy. I didn't. Did I hate them? Yeah, at times. But that was sort of the immaturity. They were fed some propaganda and they were doing what they thought was right. So, I loved my men and women a lot more than I hated the enemy. And that's what drove my decisions and my actions on the battlefield. And unfortunately, you face an adversary and I'm going to kill the adversary before they can even touch my people. But that's not driven from hate, that's driven from love for my fellow man and my brothers and sisters.

Melanie Avalon: I've always thought it's a bit of a tragedy that we don't have more words for love like they do in the four Greek loves. I just feel like we need more words to describe it because it gets all looped into this one like lovey-dovey [laughs] vague. 

Mike Sarraille: My wife and I have a word that means both love and hate and knock it off, you're going to get at right across. It's Skogafoss and actually, you know, when I retired, I had a trip I wanted to take. I always wanted to go to Iceland, and I never traveled in the military because the war was going on, and I never wanted to take the time to break away and miss something which was unhealthy. So, I never traveled other than to a Combat Zone. And so, I went to Iceland. I was dating her at the time. I asked her to marry me in front of Skogafoss, which is one of their most famous waterfalls. And so, we often say, "I Skogafoss you, but if you're doing something wrong, it's also Skogafoss." And it's the cutest to stop so.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. 

Mike Sarraille: Yeah. She's an amazing woman. So usually, when I introduce myself, I say, I am Jordan's husband. 

Melanie Avalon: No, I love that. Yeah. And I noticed on your Instagram, you only get so many things. You get to put in that short little bio [laughs] underneath your picture. Well, speaking of action and doing things in countries and traveling, what led to the documentary, the Triple 7 documentary that you've been working on a lot? 

Mike Sarraille: We did go skydiving in the Mount Everest region. It was a quick project, Drop Zone Everest. If people want to go watch that, just type in Drop Zone Everest. USA had it on their platforms. USA TODAY Sports, CarbonTV still has it up. We've pulled it off certain platforms. But, you know, I love telling stories. I love telling other people's stories. And that's where I see myself moving in the future is yes-- because I was on the team for Triple 7. Was I, you know, one of the nine figures being developed or followed. Yeah, I am, but I'm always more enthusiastic to tell the story of my brothers and sisters with a smile on my face and how awesome they are. And then I am going to tell my own story, and so Triple 7, I am narrating for that. But we're about to do this thing called Drake's Fury where we're supporting 10 special operators. Only six of them will get to row Drake's passage. But Dan Myrick is again directing, producing, I'm narrating as I get to tell the story of these guys, and that brings me more joy than telling me my story. So, it's to tell the story of the living and then also to tell the story of our dead. Those who selflessly gave their lives even though they didn't know you to protect your freedoms.

Melanie Avalon: You're going to be the official narrator, like, the voice. 

Mike Sarraille: Yeah. I walked into that. Dan and Christian Krempl, who's our partner in Legacy Studios, they tested Drop Zone Everest in several locations, and I wasn't there and they're like, the people were in tears. They're like, you need to narrate these films. I guess I have a face for radio and a voice for TV, so I think that was a compliment. And hesitatingly said yes after they said, "Hey, just do this. Let's give it a shot." 

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's amazing. I can't wait to hear it. And that actual experience, because I remember when Kirk was doing it, I was so worried because [chuckles] how many days was it? 

Mike Sarraille: So, the overall trip was probably a little less than 30, because we had to go stage in Antarctica and stay there for like six to seven days before we could actually start the clock. 

Melanie Avalon: You went to Antarctica? 

Mike Sarraille: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: Had you been there before? 

Mike Sarraille: No. 

Melanie Avalon: How was that? 

Mike Sarraille: Awesome. Very humbled to say that I've stepped on that continent to see it, the beauty. Unfortunately, it's like, bright 24 hours a day, so you come out of your tent at like 3 AM in the morning, and it's like 12 noon which sort of threw guys off. But we got to explore quite a bit as we're waiting for the expedition to start. But once we started, this concept of jumping, skydiving into all seven continents in seven days has been around for decades, and it's also almost become a running joke. Like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, we'll go do it." And everyone's like, that can't be done. People are like, "Yeah, hey, congrats on taking on this venture." You won't be able to do it in less than 10 to 14 days if you're lucky. Too many variables from weather in all the different continents. And when people say impossible, I hear improbable. And it's almost like, you're telling me-- so they're telling me there's a chance, there's a possibility. And we planned it for 18 months, and they said it especially couldn't be done unless you had a private airplane. 

Well, we're veterans. We can't afford a private airplane. So, we flew economy commercial, and then that adds another variable of what if there's delays or airplane maintenance? And we actually ran into that.

Melanie Avalon: Which there was, right? 

Mike Sarraille: Yeah. But we did it in six days, six hours and six minutes and the guys set four world records. And I remember stepping back and I felt that brotherhood again. And that doesn't replace what I have with my wife, but I just smiled watching at them celebrate. And the world records mean nothing. That's what meant the world to me is that I shared this experience with human beings and we did it together. And the records who gives a crap about the records? I hope somebody breaks them. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you have any idea when that will be airing or coming out? Or will it be like on streaming? 

Mike Sarraille: So, we're having those conversations. It will end up on some platform February of 2024 is when we'll have the release party, where I don't know, but that's what Dan is telling me. So, I'm stepping into this arena now of, like, I hesitate to say Hollywood of entertainment or documentary filmmaking. So, I'm sort of following Dan and Christian's lead on this as I learn the industry and how things work. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I will keep listeners updated on all of that. I'm so excited to watch it. Okay, maybe one last thing. You mentioned something about this. Just as far as the planning that went into all of it. You do have a big part in the book about accomplishing goals and the role of planning. I'm like [laughs] a big planner. Like, I live by my calendar, I'm planning and all of that. What are your thoughts on goal accomplishment and the role of making a plan, and how can we not be over neurotic with things? What are your thoughts on plan? Like, sometimes I'm like, "Should I be a person who goes with the flow more?" 

Mike Sarraille: So, you know, everything is a balance. So, when we talk about goals, it's okay to have lofty goals. And in fact, Kirk and John Welbourn and I were just talking about that, but you often see somebody who, let's say a man who's 300 pounds and is morbidly obese, and he's like, "Hey, I'm going to get in shape, and I'm going to lose 50 pounds in 10 days, which is just that's a very lofty goal." And they quit two days into it because they realize how hard it's going to be. They didn't set themselves up for success. So rather the process of what we use in the military to say, "Hey, this is our objective over here." Hey, if it pertains to weight loss, let's say in that scenario, I've caused damage to my body over five years. This is not going to happen overnight. So, within two years, I want to be 200 pounds. So that's the objective. Here's the timeline two years. 

Now, let's create reverse planning, realistic goals and milestones to hit over the next two years that set me up for success and then follow those milestones, don't leap. Try to leap to the 200 pounds because you will only be met with failure, and it's delayed gratification is taking the hard path, which is the right path, which also sets foundational building blocks, which become what we call habits, positive habits, and there are negative or bad habits. So, you've got, let's say between those two years, you've got either 24 or maybe you said biweekly, 48 milestones. And if you don't hit every milestone, don't quit. Reflect, say, "What did I do? Or where did I lack the discipline to meet that goal?" And then learn from that, implement those changes as you go for the next milestone. And sometimes it happens like, "Hey, two years, I'm not going to do it." 

We're bumping this to two years in two months because of this and staying on track and committing and just not quitting from that goal, having the commitment and the drive to pursue it. But Melanie, I say this. I use the example again, delayed gratification versus instant gratification, which is partly because of our society. People see people who are successful and they want that. They think it's overnight success. There's no such thing. I've not seen it. In my left hand, I have a blue pill. In my right hand, I have a red pill. The left hand, the blue pill. If you take it will help you set the foundational building blocks to lose that weight. Or the red pill, take this and you'll go from 300 pounds to 200 pounds overnight. What do you think most people, humans, will choose? The red pill. They want that instant gratification. They don't want to put the hard work in. 

Well, you take that pill, you wake up in the morning, you're 200 pounds. Guess what? Within about three to 12 months, you'll be 300 pounds again. Because you did not again build those habits that stay with you for life. Take the hard path. The hard path is always the right path because it means you have to actually use these attributes called drive, discipline, accountability, resilience, and those are the things from which success is achieved. When you build those attributes, you are setting yourself up for success. It does not mean that life will be easy. It just means you've got the playbook, the blueprint to succeed. 

Melanie Avalon: Me personally, I don't know, I feel like I've been haunted by my drive and discipline. [laughs] Like, I get a little bit, I don't know -- 

Mike Sarraille: Neurotic. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. [laughs] So I haven't had the experience. I mean, I might have, but it doesn't quickly come into mind the experience where I struggle to find drive or find that aspect. But you did have a section for people who do. And something I loved is you basically said, people can outsource their discipline. Basically, if you don't have discipline or drive, you can sign up for something where you have to show up. And so now other people are enforcing you to have this drive and discipline. I thought that was so cool. I was like, "That's a nice little hack." 

Mike Sarraille: We call it accountability partners and that's something I learned from the special operations and community. If you don't need to sign up for it, if guys see you doing something wrong, they're going to call you out on it. Not because they want to embarrass you or denigrate you or make fun of you. It's because they have a bar, a standard. They have a high standard, and they want to see you succeed, and they want to see the very best version of you. So, if you need assistance upfront, it's okay to have an accountability partner. That's an external force, eventually you want to move. When I say accountability or discipline, I think of self-accountability and self-discipline. If you look at the definition of discipline, that is to instill or I'm sorry, exude or put punishment on somebody for an infraction, I don't need that. I don't want that. I want to be able to call myself out and hold myself accountable for a lack of discipline, and I don't need somebody to reinforce that. So, it's okay at first to have that accountability partner, but what you want to develop is that internal accountability and that internal discipline I call self-accountability and self-discipline. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I love it. And then also, I don't think you talked about this in the book. You do have a large section on habits. Something I've loved that I've learned about habits, a nice reframe is we get so emotionally wedded to our habits and we have our "good habits and our bad habits" and we think that we are always going to want-- If we're struggling with a bad habit, we think we always are going to want to do that bad habit. But technically, the brain, it doesn't care about what the habit is. It just likes habits. And I find that so freeing because it means you can literally change your habits and good habits can make you happy instead of bad habits. You just think that you like one more than the other. But once your brain changes, it's like down, [laughs] it gets the dopamine regardless.

Mike Sarraille: There are so many times I use this example like a downfall is this cookie company called Crumbl? Oh, it is so good. It is so good my wife and I, and she's got the discipline of like, "No, no, no." I'm like, "No, I'm going to do it." And you eat two or three of the cookies, and it is so good in the moment. But how do you feel afterwards? You're like, "Damn it, damn it, I feel horrible. Why did I do that?" And so, you've got to be able to, again, delay that desire for that short-term happiness, to go buy that car you can't afford and just put it on debt. And then do you know how much mental strife you're going to have as those payments come in and you don't have the means to pay it? Yeah, I fall victim to that. There're moments where we lose our discipline. No one is disciplined 100% of the time, and I don't want like, again, there's certain social media figures out there that are like 110% all the time. No, that's not even possible. No one can go past 100% and nobody can maintain 100% for extended periods of time. You've got to take time to rest and reflect. We didn't send our soldiers to Afghanistan for 20 years. No, we sent them for six months, we bring them home. And then there was this rotation. If not, you would have warped people into the dirt and there would have been a lot more dead soldiers. 

Melanie Avalon: Just really quick comment on the Crumbl thing. So, this is actually a good example of, well, people this is embarrassing and people might think I'm crazy once I say this, but I've never had Crumbl cookies, but I appreciate they look very good. I can probably tell you all the flavors because the habit I have created instead of eating them is I just read the reviews about them and that actually makes [laughs] me really happy. So that's my hack for that. [laughs] I love that they switch the flavors. I know if I have one, I'll just feel awful. 

Mike Sarraille: My wife and I will look at the menu and we're like, "Oh, that looks so good." Like, "Well played [claps] Crumbl, well played. Shut the app off." 

Melanie Avalon: The key is to look at it-- Okay, here's the key. The key is to look at it, like read it for fun while you're eating something you actually love that's healthy. And then you're being nourished, but you also get to enjoy. It works for me so well.

Mike Sarraille: So, I was recently in San Diego, and I love this woman, Marla. She's a Fox LA anchor. We skydived her in, my buddy Nick Kush and I, Andy Stumpf, couldn't make it out. And we did it for Memorial Day. Well, she read the book and she read about the Crumbl part. And so, she comes with 12 dozen Crumbl cookies. And I'm like, You, mother-- and there were some kids and I had little piece of the chocolate one. I'm like, "Hey, even Crumbl is good in San Diego," because I live in Texas and there were some kids, and my kids eat all of this right now, make it disappear. And the kids just went town and it was gone. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you moderate or you're an extremist all-in type person? 

Mike Sarraille: You know, probably in my youth I was an extremist. That sounds horrible. I took things to the extremes. I think with age, wisdom and maturity, you realize that moderation is the key. Too much of anything is not a good thing. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I just know for me, I don't know, maybe this is a limiting belief that I have, but I just feel like I can't do moderation. So, it's like yes or no. It's like with the Crumbl cookies, I can never-- I can't have one bite or just no bites [chuckles] or the whole thing. 

Mike Sarraille: There's both the good and the bad with certain attributes. I completely hear you. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Mike. This has been absolutely incredible. You are just a wealth of information and motivation, and you're changing so many lives. I really can't thank you enough for all that you're doing. How can people best follow your work? What links would you like to put out there? 

Mike Sarraille: God, I have got a personal website now, so mikesarraille.com is really the best place to find me. It's got links to the Men's Journal and Legacy Expeditions and the documentaries and stuff like that. It's run by my team, so I rarely go on there because the sound of my own voice and my face irritate even me. So go to mikesarraille.com. You can reach out to us through the contact if you need a speaker or one of our other speakers who I always recommend. Yeah, that's the best resource. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. And what are you most excited about right now? Because you're just doing so many things. 

Mike Sarraille: The amount of work that it's going to require to build this thing, that what it can be and my partner, Andy Stumpf called me, "Hey, man, we got so much, we got so much opportunity. We got to go hard." And he approaches things with a little more again, moderation. But I'm excited that I've got something to work on, and I feel fortunate and blessed. I mean, I've worked my ass off to get to this point, but there's opportunity, and I'm going to do what's necessary to seize that opportunity and continue to work hard. And the fact that I have that opportunity, I consider myself grateful. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, that's perfect, because the last question that I ask every single guest on this show and it's just because I realize more and more each day how important mindset is. So, what is something that you're grateful for? 

Mike Sarraille: Oh, there's so much. I hate to say prioritize one thing over the other, but I'm just grateful for everyone that's been in my life who's touched me. From a guy who jumps on a grenade, a brother in arms who jumps on a grenade 3 feet from me to save my life and give his life in exchange for that, to my kids, to my wife, to you, to everyone I've had the pleasure of sharing just a moment with in a positive way, whether it's one minute or a couple of decades. So, I am who I said earlier, I am who I am because of everyone who's touched me and who I've touched and learned from. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, I love that so much and this was just so wonderful. It was so nice to finally meet you. Like I was saying at the beginning, I feel like I already know you from just the past few months and watching all of your stuff and the brief conversations we have had. So, thank you so, so much. I cannot thank you enough for all that you are doing for our world, and I will eagerly follow all of your work. I'll be sharing it with the listeners, and hopefully we can meet some time if I'm ever in Austin or if you're in Atlanta, have to meet. 

Mike Sarraille: Yes, ma'am. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, have a good rest of your day.

Mike Sarraille: Melanie, thank you so much. Anything you need, let me know. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. You too. Bye.

Mike Sarraille: Buh-bye.

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